Curse

Mangione · Dec 18, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Mesmers are one of the least wanted classes in pugs, this is a fact.
Most of them end up learning to effectively play H/H for vanquishing and hm missions, since it is quite rare to be accepted. Even less in fow, uw, doa teams...
Very few people want a mesmer in their group, yet one of the most popular builds for team farming is based on a mesmer skill : cry of pain.

This thread made me think...

(*) The nerf on SF, to make it being kept for long time only by assassins primary, kills the SF farming/running build for mesmer. Me/A can't SF farm anymore.

And if we think of other changes:

(*) Some water magic skills have been changed to nerf the fast snares build. Now Me/El is less effective than El/Me.

(*) The change to TNTF made this skill effective on paragon primary, since it is affected by the Leadership attribute ("For 4 seconds and 1 second for every 2 ranks in Leadership"). So the Me/P won't use effectively this skill.

So: Me/El, Me/A, Me/P end up being changed, as effect of various nerfs. They were effectively using other professions skills, and this needed a change, but X/Me is untouched.

If this is the line being followed, it would be fair to give mesmer something "unique": why not turn "Cry Of Pain" into something that is more effective on mesmers than other classes? (Like, for example, it has been done for SF and TNTF for the other classes). After all CoP it is a mesmer skill.

An example would be:
"Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 15...50 damage + 10 damage for each 2 ranks in the Fast Casting attribute. (max 100 dmg)"

So it is needed at least 10 in FC to have it work as it is now.

Fairness?

Knight O Cydonia · Dec 18, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

One of the main problems with CoP in my eyes is that you can chain an unlimited number of copies of it in a short amount of time. You would still see teams of mesmer primaries abusing it. I would look to change it to look a bit more like a [[Wastrel's Worry] / [[Web of Disruption] hybrid.

10e 0.25c 12r

Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. For 2 seconds target foe is hexed with Cry of Pain. When this hex ends, that foe and all foes in the area take 15...50 damage + 10 damage for each 2 ranks in the Fast Casting attribute. (max 100 dmg).

It probably looks over complicated, but i think it would keep it as a viable skill to have on a mesmers bar while reducing non mesmer, and teams of 8 me/x abusing it. Any thoughts?

Picuso · Dec 18, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

2 seconds it's too much... Maybe CoP should work like Ancestor's Rage. "After 1 second..."

My though:
10e 0.25c 10r

Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. For 1 seconds target foe is hexed with Cry of Pain. When this hex ends, that foe and all foes in the area take 10 damage for each rank in the Fast Casting attribute. (max 100 dmg).

Unique skill for mesmer.

upier · Dec 18, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

First of all:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

Mesmers are one of the least wanted classes in pugs, this is a fact.
Most of them end up learning to effectively play H/H for vanquishing and hm missions, since it is quite rare to be accepted. Even less in fow, uw, doa teams...

It's really not so much that mesmers aren't wanted - it's more of a that PuG do not exist.
Anyone not taking along a person that actually WANTS to PuG is a moron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

(*) Some water magic skills have been changed to nerf the fast snares build. Now Me/El is less effective than El/Me.

If you are using snares in PvE - you are doing it wrong.
And in PvP - FC is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

(*) The change to TNTF made this skill effective on paragon primary, since it is affected by the Leadership attribute ("For 4 seconds and 1 second for every 2 ranks in Leadership"). So the Me/P won't use effectively this skill.

Neither will ANY X/P!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

If this is the line being followed, it would be fair to give mesmer something "unique": why not turn "Cry Of Pain" into something that is more effective on mesmers than other classes? (Like, for example, it has been done for SF and TNTF for the other classes). After all CoP it is a mesmer skill.

An example would be:
"Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 15...50 damage + 10 damage for each 2 ranks in the Fast Casting attribute. (max 100 dmg)"

So it is needed at least 10 in FC to have it work as it is now.

Fairness?

On-topic:
/Nerf CoP.
My suggestion:
Spell. Target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and take 30-50 damage. If target foe was using a skill CoP recharges immediately.
Reduce the cost to 5 and the recharge to 10.

It's an insane interpretation of one of the best PvE mesmer skills, while still stepping away from nuke-mentality that breaks the current CoP.

Zidane Ortef · Dec 18, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Nothing is need Me/X can already abuse CoP far more then a X/Me can

Mesmers have FC which means for faster crys more dmg in a shorter time,and with this said they have access to skills that can become more effect on mesmer primary and still have the edge for CoP like using Shared Burden for the AoE hex and having far better energy management with skills like Auspicious Incantation at higher ranks than a X/Me.

the only thing that CoP offers for X/Me is the option to play a build on any class with out any drawbacks.

CoP is a gimmick I'm not going to deny it but trying to make it a one class skill like they have done with so many things just annoys players and make it so to run this you must have this and not everyone likes or has a mesmer.

Mesmer with CoP > then X/Me with CoP IMO.

~Zidane~

daze · Dec 18, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Mesmer with CoP > then X/Me with CoP IMO.

~Zidane~

meh, id say that N/Me > Me/x for Cop just because of all the lovely e management

id also say that E/Me > Me/x for CoP because of the huge pool of energy to be able to do something like [echo][arcane echo][cry of pain]

the only benefit for Me/x would probably be Me/A and maybe go Me/A [assassins promise][cry of pain] that mixed with fast casting would be kinda nice for the constant recasting, but the e-management would still be < E/ or N/. Which means you would have to slot extra skills to more E-management instead of bringing more utility like you could with E/ or N/

Tyla · Dec 18, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Nothing is need Me/X can already abuse CoP far more then a X/Me can

Mesmers have FC which means for faster crys more dmg in a shorter time,and with this said they have access to skills that can become more effect on mesmer primary and still have the edge for CoP like using Shared Burden for the AoE hex and having far better energy management with skills like Auspicious Incantation at higher ranks than a X/Me.

the only thing that CoP offers for X/Me is the option to play a build on any class with out any drawbacks.

CoP is a gimmick I'm not going to deny it but trying to make it a one class skill like they have done with so many things just annoys players and make it so to run this you must have this and not everyone likes or has a mesmer.

Mesmer with CoP > then X/Me with CoP IMO.

~Zidane~

The only way a Mesmer is superior in terms of CoP usage is with Assassins' Promise. Otherwise, other professions fulfil the slot just as good if not better. Ether Renewal, Soul Reaping. OR you can have an 8 Monk team, one Monk has CoP + Mind Wrack, the rest of the Monks have just CoP or maybe some smite damage for extra shit.

Also, I agree with Upier on making CoP more skillful and less "HE HAZ HEX COPNAO". I'd rather see all PvE skills removed from this game too, but they could at least be tuned to a more... reasonable... level. I'd also like to see all of them changed so they are more powerful on that profession rather than being able to be efficiently used on other professions. Also I'd like to see HM changed to be less "I HAS FAST EVERYTHANG THAN U LOLOLOL" and more "My skillbar is decent and I know how to use these skills".

Mangione · Dec 18, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

It's really not so much that mesmers aren't wanted - it's more of a that PuG do not exist.
Anyone not taking along a person that actually WANTS to PuG is a moron.

I know that players have slower reflexes than bots and are less reliable, more prone to mistakes, but I prefer to pug for the social experience and for the fun of playing with other humans.
It seems it's not the same for other players, so I ended up getting my vanq and guardian titles by playing with bots, just like a single player game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are using snares in PvE - you are doing it wrong.
And in PvP - FC is good.

Who talked about using snares in pve? It is in general...

Anyway, it is called "fun trying different builds".
Should try it at least once in your character's lifetime. Just to change from the usual team builds.
One player snares, the others pour down meteor shower/whatever aoe.

And that change to water magic was done to nerf the fast snares pvp build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Neither will ANY X/P!

You got the point right! TNTF is a Paragon skill, and those who can use it way better than others are P/X, not X/P.

Just watching some other PVE-only skills:

"Critical Agility" works better for primary Assassins, because they can invest points in Critical Strikes, thus increasing the chance to have it reapplied.

"Eternal Aura" can make you keep perma-dervish form. Only for dervish.

"Seed Of Life" gives 2 health for each rank in Divine Favor... useless for non primary monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

CoP is a gimmick I'm not going to deny it but trying to make it a one class skill like they have done with so many things just annoys players and make it so to run this you must have this and not everyone likes or has a mesmer.

It is the same for "not everyone likes or has an assassin/paragon/dervish".
But...
To run perma-SF you have to be Assassin.
To use well TNTF you have to be Paragon.
To keep a Dervish form up constantly you have to be Dervish.
I don't think they are going to remove such limitations because "they are a one class thing that just annoys players".

On the issue of energy management I second Daze's and Tyla's point of view.

upier · Dec 18, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

I know that players have slower reflexes than bots and are less reliable, more prone to mistakes, but I prefer to pug for the social experience and for the fun of playing with other humans.
It seems it's not the same for other players, so I ended up getting my vanq and guardian titles by playing with bots, just like a single player game.

My point rather was that in a game which is primarily played as a single-player experience these day - it's insane if you want to play with others to dismiss ANYONE that wants to join (unless of course they would represent a liability based on their skill).
There just aren't enough players that appreciate the multiplayer aspect of PvE to turn them down based on a stupid idea that mesmers don't cut it in PvE. And if they do turn you down - you don't want to be playing with them because that's a testament of their skill! Or better yet - a lack thereof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

Who talked about using snares in pve? It is in general...

Anyway, it is called "fun trying different builds".
Should try it at least once in your character's lifetime. Just to change from the usual team builds.
One player snares, the others pour down meteor shower/whatever aoe.

And that change to water magic was done to nerf the fast snares pvp build.

You can still have fun trying out different builds. You just won't be as effective.
Still - the best water PvE snare is still working as nicely as it did before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

You got the point right! TNTF is a Paragon skill, and those who can use it way better than others are P/X, not X/P.

Just watching some other PVE-only skills:

"Critical Agility" works better for primary Assassins, because they can invest points in Critical Strikes, thus increasing the chance to have it reapplied.

"Eternal Aura" can make you keep perma-dervish form. Only for dervish.

"Seed Of Life" gives 2 health for each rank in Divine Favor... useless for non primary monks.

My necro appreciates CoP. My mesmer doesn't.
That's why my necro runs it and my mesmer doesn't.
Limiting it's use to mesmers only - would just mean that my necro wouldn't be able to use it. My mesmer still wouldn't touch it.

Everyone is abusing CoP.
But the problem of that sentence isn't "everyone" - the problem is that it's a skill that allows abuse!
So if CoP should be modified - the abuse part should be looked at. Not the mesmer-only part. Because if only mesmers will be able to abuse it - people will create mesmers and use them to farm.
When you are farming - you aren't in it for the emotional attachment to your character. You are in it for the money.

kostolomac · Dec 18, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

/Nerf CoP.
My suggestion:
Spell. Target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and take 30-50 damage. If target foe was using a skill CoP recharges immediately.
Reduce the cost to 5 and the recharge to 10.

It's an insane interpretation of one of the best PvE mesmer skills, while still stepping away from nuke-mentality that breaks the current CoP.

I would agree with you if the cast times in HM were normal.

I don't see any problem with CoP. It would be nice to link it to FC , but it's not needed. Compared to SY! or Soul reaping , one copy of CoP isn't overpowered.

My suggestion: Limit the number of same pve skills a party can use to 2 or 3. So a team can't use more than 2-3 CoP's.

romeus petrus · Dec 18, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

CoP is fine the way it is. Mesmers are an amazing class to play both in PvE and PvP. Leave us alone.

The Meth · Dec 18, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My suggestion:
Spell. Target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and take 30-50 damage. If target foe was using a skill CoP recharges immediately.
Reduce the cost to 5 and the recharge to 10.

It's an insane interpretation of one of the best PvE mesmer skills, while still stepping away from nuke-mentality that breaks the current CoP.

Like this very much.

upier · Dec 18, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I would agree with you if the cast times in HM were normal.

Yeah that's the issue.
But the problem is that CoP is the new Ursan, where instead of fixing the REAL issue (halved activation times, double damage, ...) they introduced a new solution that is now causing new problems.

It's so Bart the Mother-esque:

Quote:

Kent Brockman: Our top story, the population of parasitic tree lizards has exploded, and local citizens couldn't be happier! It seems the rapacious reptiles have developed a taste for the common pigeon, also known as the feathered rat, or the gutterbird. For the first time, citizens need not fear harassment by flocks of chattering disease-bags.

Skinner: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.

The problem is ... I don't think that CoP is the gorilla yet ...

MirkoTeran · Dec 18, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I'd rather see all PvE skills removed from this game too, but they could at least be tuned to a more... reasonable... level. I'd also like to see all of them changed so they are more powerful on that profession rather than being able to be efficiently used on other professions. Also I'd like to see HM changed to be less "I HAS FAST EVERYTHANG THAN U LOLOLOL" and more "My skillbar is decent and I know how to use these skills".

This.

.............

the Puppeteer · Dec 18, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

(*) Some water magic skills have been changed to nerf the fast snares build. Now Me/El is less effective than El/Me.
...
...
Fairness?

yes - I think it's fair that a primary water ele is better then a water mesmer

What about the rit class? Being replaced by N/Rt... Don't they deserve some pve love?

FlamingMetroid · Dec 18, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

CoP is fine the way it is. Mesmers are an amazing class to play both in PvE and PvP. Leave us alone.

Because mesmers are the only class that (ab)use CoP.

romeus petrus · Dec 18, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Because mesmers are the only class that (ab)use CoP.

LOL!! I really hope ur being sarcastic.

FlamingMetroid · Dec 18, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

LOL!! I really hope ur being sarcastic.

quite obviously, yes...

romeus petrus · Dec 18, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Then we agree, cheers.

Ultima pyromancer · Dec 18, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

CoP isnt anymore overpowered than any of the other PvE skills..

I see PvE skills on the same level as 3 buffed elite skills that you have on your bar..Compared to ursan, CoP is nothing. It does require a decent team to pull it off effectively. And lets not start the gimmick row again... PvE is supposed to be fun, before anybody starts the "Its noob" "Its easy" "OMG MOAR MELEEEE"

Bringing a mesmer team adds flexability, and any half experienced player can manage energy.. mesmers are GODS of energy management. And no, Energy management is NOT Rolling E/ME dumping 16 into energy storage and pinging how high your energy goes. It should never be a problem.

Mesmers have been laughed at in PvE for 3 and a half years... Give us a break